Interview: Football and maths have something in common: Heiko Vogel

What have playing football and solving a math problem in common? Determination and being ambitious, that is the answer of Bayern Munich's youth coach Heiko Vogel.

   In a recent interview with Xinhua, Vogel, head coach of Bayern Munich second team and sporting director of the club's entire junior team, talked about what's behind Bayern Munich's youth training system and benefits of football in general, saying "football is a school for life."

   Xinhua: Mr. Vogel, imagine sitting in a restaurant for sports. Why would you recommend a football meal and not, let's say, athletics, swimming or table tennis?

   Vogel: To fall in love with football you don't even need a football. It is enough to start with a baby building block. Right from when you first start to walk, you kick it and feel good. Football is an easy game to learn and you don't need a lot of preparation. Instead of using a ball, you could use a ball of wool or a can. Football has everything: Emotion, creativity, it's communicative, it's social because it's a team sport. It's a sport in which two teams face each other trying to score themselves and to prevent their opponents from finding the back of the net. Football is adventure.   

   Xinhua: That sounds like a declaration of love. 

   Vogel: It is. There's no better game. 

   Xinhua: You were a successful coach at FC Basel and once beat Manchester United in the Champions League. That a coach like you is now coaching young footballers at a club like Bayern Munich shows us that youth football is taken very seriously.

   Vogel: There has been a change of attitude in Europe regarding coaching and educating youngsters within football. Clubs and associations meanwhile know that the key to success in football lies in having excellent academy systems.

   Xinhua: What attracts you to youth coaching?

   Vogel: You accompany talented youngsters from their first tentative steps to when they make the step up to, maybe, professional or adult football. These steps and development are the most interesting steps in sports.

   Xinhua: Would you say it is more satisfying than adult football?

   Vogel: It is different, in youth football it is all about development. Playing a part in the careers of players like Philipp Lahm, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Thomas Mueller, Mats Hummels and Toni Kroos, who all won the 2014 World Cup, at a club like Bayern Munich is a very special thing.

   Xinhua: What's behind your academy system at Bayern?

   Vogel: We want identification with our region and are happy when players from Bavaria become a part of the first team squad. Good examples are Thomas Mueller, Philipp Lahm and Bastian Schweinsteiger. These guys are figureheads who stand for identification. On top there is our game philosophy, which has become far clearer ever since our head coach Pep Guardiola took over. The philosophy will shape the future of the teams at Bayern in the next years. A fundamental point will be the future potential of a player.

   Xinhua: Is it important that all a club's youth teams use the same system as the first team? Is this the way at Bayern? 

   Vogel: We don't use the same system for a reason. We don't want to be tied to just one system. We have to consider the fact that we have to develop as many players as possible. To only use one system would mean we couldn't do that. To develop players, they have to play. If we for instance have two good strikers both have to play so that we can't use a system with only one. To develop them we would rather use a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-2 system so that both can play.

   Xinhua: But the fundamental idea of dominant football is a part of your youth program as well?

   Vogel: Definitely. This is something Bayern stands for no matter who the head coach is and what is his philosophy. Dominant football is the most efficient way to play to be successful. With the amount of games our teams have to play during a long season, playing with a dominant style is efficient. Dominant means possessing the ball for as long as possible which means you don't have to chase it too much. A vital part of dominant football is to play constructive football, meaning, every pass is part of our football construction.

   Xinhua: Could you explain the phrase "constructive football"?

   Vogel: It contains skilled players with a good positional game playing precise football. The most important thing is not the first quick pass, it is the precise quick pass. That precise pass is the most dangerous one in football. It is not played to get rid of the ball, it is played with a purpose behind it.

   Xinhua: Success in football seems to always come and go in circles. For some years, some countries seem to be successful and then are overtaken by others. Is there a golden way to be constantly successful?

   Vogel: The golden way, I think has to be: Always look for new methods and possibilities. Use positive and negative developments to improve your way of working. Football is changing all the time. That means don't rely on what you are doing as being something that is appropriate at all times. Don't lean back and relax when things are going well. It's where most mistakes are made. Beating successful teams is the biggest motivation for other teams. So be suspicious in everything you do.

   Xinhua: Now we've been talking about success in football but schooling in football means far more as one has to give the youngsters an education for life. And one has to coordinate both the football training and the academic education. To what extent are you involved as a football coach?

   Vogel: I am aware of what players have to deal with. I can tell you it's a lot and I am full of respect. Time management alone requires a lot of discipline and determination. We have to work at the highest levels both on the pitch and at school. I think to have fun and a positive feedback from football or other sports can help to get over difficulties in school and the other way around.

   Xinhua: That is exactly the concern of many Chinese parents that have kids wanting to play football alongside getting a good school education. Of course they don't want the school to be neglected.

   Vogel: I can fully understand that concern. A career in football cannot be guaranteed and is not possible to plan. It depends on several factors you can't influence. But I strongly believe in a harmonious co-existence of school and football. It is an obligation to have a close look at both. And if you take it seriously, school is something that is always a top priority. We do a lot in our system to cater for both meaning players visit special schools and we do everything so that they can train alongside doing their schoolwork.

   Xinhua: We are interested to see if your answer will convince Chinese parents...

   Vogel: (laughing) Now I have the feeling I have to deliver more convincing arguments...

   Xinhua: Hope you don't mind but that is our feeling too...

   Vogel: (laughing) Youngsters can profit academically from the experience and enjoyment get through football...

   Xinhua: Meaning you are convinced that one's experiences playing football has a positive effect on school life?

   Vogel: Definitely. School life does profit from football life. Just take a situation in which you have to try to solve a maths problem. Possessing the determination to solve a problem and not to give up is something you find in football and school. Being ambitious helps you not only in football but in school, or in this case, in mathematics as well.

   Xinhua: What is important for a coach working with youngsters?

   Vogel: It's important to not only look at a youngster and see just a footballer but to see the human being first and foremost with all his characteristics. We want self-confident players and human beings. Self confident players are the better players. They are able to solve problems or tasks.

   Xinhua: Now maybe a provocative question: When only a few make it in the end, why do so many try and become a professional footballer?

   Vogel: Because everyone has the hope of being one of the ones that make it, and because football is basically a fascinating sport. But fundamental is not the hope of making it, it is about how you develop within football because the game and everything that comes with it gives you so much for life in general no matter in which league or how often you play. My wish would be that parents support their children to try to fulfil their dreams and, no matter if they make it or not, help them profit from football which in my eyes is a school for life.

   Xinhua: School for life means taking teamwork to heart, be determined and invest whatever you can in the community?

   Vogel: Football contains a lot of aspects you find in normal life. Teamwork means providing your talents for the good of the team, to be a part of the whole, to be a leader, to communicate, to learn from losing and accept it (if you don't you will fail in normal life too) and to learn from winning, meaning, keep your feet on the ground and motivate yourself to do greater things.

   Xinhua: What is more important in youth football, talent or training?

   Vogel: Talent alone will take you nowhere and mentality alone will also take you nowhere. Successful people have both talent and the right attitude. They are hard working and want to progress. Both are important - talent and training. But one other thing is important as well.

   Xinhua: That sounds exciting.

   Vogel: To be honest when it comes to your potential in football. It's a part of my job to be honest even when it may be painful. It's not easy to say you won't earn enough money with football to earn a decent living for your entire life. That might in fact be painful at the start but it opens up new opportunities and channels meaning you can invest more into other parts of life.

   Xinhua: Let us talk about tactical training, are there different training programs for different age groups?

   Vogel: In youth football, you shouldn't start right away with team tactics. Individual tactics and training is more important at the start. Team tactics could prevent you from working on your individual skills as it might somehow work despite your deficits.

   Xinhua: How does training differ in the different age groups?

   Vogel: At first, the youngest ones play a kind of team tactic that has them following the ball no matter where it is on the pitch. But in general, team tactics are not important in the first years as I said, it is a part that can be taught later easily. More important is the individual work on skills which is not so easy to learn later. What has been left out is much harder to catch up later in football life.

   Xinhua: Can you tell us, what is the biggest difference in youth football in comparison to professional football?

   Vogel: Just a few days Arjen Robben trained with our second team and showed his world class when it comes to willingness to work and run, precision, intensity and communication.

   Xinhua: Many say the step from the second team up to the first team squad is the hardest in football. Do you agree?

   Vogel: In first team football the result is by far the most important. Young talented players don't play football like that, they're there to play and learn.

   Xinhua: What is needed for a youngster to make it?

   Vogel: Talent and attitude.

   Xinhua: What is in your mind the most important factor in youth football? The equipment, infrastructure around you, your parents, training or coaches?

   Vogel: The most important thing has to come from the player himself. He has to have the determination and dedication to make it. A player that has to be pushed by his parents or coaches will never be willing to take the final step. A good infrastructure of course makes things easier, but the job still stays the same. To make it clear: I think intense investment in what you do will lead to great rewards. If you don't do enough you have to accept you're not going to make it but if you do you can go a long, long way.

   Xinhua: This sounds as if football is fair?

   Vogel: That's what I believe. Or let me put it this way: It is more likely to be successful if you invest more. And by the way, it means investing more even if it doesn't work immediately, you have to think of the long run.

   Xinhua: How important is the physical development of youngsters regarding their development in football?

   Vogel: The body is the limiting factor, meaning if you suffer from injuries or your body is not working regarding the needs of professional football, talent, training and dedication are not enough.

   Xinhua: Do you have special training for different positions in football, meaning those who are regarded as defenders have to do more work weightlifting in the gym?

   Vogel: A 14-year-old will never do weightlifting. You don't do any good by doing that. Later it is something that is been done. I'll tell you something regarding positional play and the question of what is the right position. A good example is Bayern captain Philipp Lahm. He began as a right winger, he started in the Bundesliga as left back, won the 2014 World Cup as a right back and is sometimes put into midfield by Bayern coach pep Guardiola. There is one thing a player that wants to be successful has to do: He has to deliver a weapon which can be either speed, dribbling, or a good positional or passing game.

   Xinhua: Are there different training programs for different age groups? And what is the best age to learn?

   Vogel: There is the "golden age" of learning that so many talk about which is said to only be between eight and twelve. Technique can be taught better in that age period. When youngsters get older things get harder. You asked about training with weights before, we don't start before 16, the best age to start with that in the sense of football is 17 to 19.

   Xinhua: We read an interview with Pep Guardiola in which he said there would be no age barrier for him when it comes to players for the first team. Does that mean a 14-year-old could play for Bayern Munich's first team?

   Vogel: The possibility that a 14-year-old would play in the first team is not high, but generally it would be possible. If a player is ready physically and mentally he could play. But you of course have to consider that the development of a youngster takes time. In the center of Guardiola's mind is that good players always have the chance to play no matter how old they are. There is no age barrier. Guardiola is additionally a man that wants to know every detail about our work and development.

   Xinhua: How intense is the communication between youngsters, second team and the first team?

   Vogel: In this case too, Bayern Munich is a very special club that has an intense connection between first teamers and second teamers of all ages.

   Xinhua: China is a nation that loves sports and football. But many Chinese are asking themselves one question: Is there a connection between the huge amount of young football players and success. Germany has many, many young players in football and is successful. In China, football is still developing and there are not so many youngsters playing football so far, but the number is rising. Is it possible to be successful in football when there are not so many young players?

   Vogel: I'm sure there is a strong connection between the number of players at your disposal and the success you have. Meaning, less players, less success. But I'm sure that China will develop to reach a high level. Football will become more and more popular. When the national team has success, people will become aware of the fact. China's potential is huge.

   Xinhua: What has a country to do to become a real force in football and how long does it take?

   Vogel: The culture of a country must be open for football. Popular sports in my experience, are always embedded in the cultural context. In Europe it is football, in China so far it has been mainly table tennis, gymnastics and basketball which are becoming more and more popular. But I'm sure football can't be stopped anymore in China. China will be conquered by football. More and more youngsters will play somewhere out on the street. Football is a sport that can take over a nation's soul and heart. No young kid can get away. It is magic to kick a ball around no matter where you are. It starts with the first touch of a ball.

   Xinhua: Meaning football develops at a young age?

   Vogel: I think so.

   Xinhua: Even in Germany one to two decades ago, amateur clubs had problems to put out teams in different age groups. Some clubs had to work together to enable youngsters to play league football.

   Vogel: That was the case because there were a growing number of activities for youngsters and new means of communication. I think football has shown a reaction to that and is today more attractive, just look at the connection between school and training. Years ago there were three things for a youngster to do, today there are 300.

   Xinhua: Is there a great difference in the youth programs in football in Europe?

   Vogel: The most important thing is that clubs and associations became aware of the fact they had to be open to new training methods and new ideas. But sometime you have to rely on a special talented generation. France had one between 1998 and 2002 and Spain in the last years.

   Xinhua: For many, Germany's success is connected to the implementation of football boarding schools at professional clubs?

   Vogel: Well for me that is one part among others. The sum of everything is basically the reason.

   Xinhua: Is the impression right that players have got younger in the last years? Even 16-year-olds play in first teams.

   Vogel: Players get to the right level through better training methods quicker than ever. Professional football in general has opened up to younger players. In the past, there was the impression, players have to work their way up. Now if there is a highly talented player we have to support him and let him play because this makes him even better. But of course there still is an age barrier, otherwise we have young adults on the pitch which is nothing I would support.

   Xinhua: Bayern Munich is said to have a special winning mentality, which we find again in the club's slogan "mia san mia" (we are us).

   Vogel: This winning mentality is part of what the club stands for. That includes a family-like environment, cohesion, loyalty and trust. They all are things that support this mentality. Bayern Munich as a club has preserved this values, it is its fundament. Another thing that plays a role in the winning mentality is that we in every game have more to lose than others as it's our ambition to win every game. If a player has all we have been talking about now, he could well follow in the steps of Thomas Mueller.  Endi